Curse

kolakoski · Mar 05, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Well met!

Guild Wars is a very deep game. Reaching lvl 20 with my Ranger, ascending, acquiring the skills to copy and understand the synergies of builds from Wiki, tweaking them to taste, joining a good guild, finishing Prophecies, etc., etc., etc., I find that I have just scratched the surface. Just one example: I have seen one of my guildmates with heros, with such a synergistic combination of skills, gear, runes and secondaries (aggressive lions for everyone, lol) . . . . I am in awe, lol! And even Godlike Achilles, in Guild Wars, cannot go it alone. I believe Mastery must of necessity be highly adaptable to the situation: who is the enemy, who are your team mates, etc. But I readily admit that I know nothing. I humbly ask the Masters among you to outline a path, a syllabus, that those of us wandering in the wilderness (yea, though I wander through the Crystal Desert, . . . lol) can follow.

Wo Tan Ki, Ranger, Knights of Shadowpeak (KoS)

P.S.: PvP is a different animal; it deserves its own thread.

Enko · Mar 05, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

only thing you need to know how to do is being able to correct your mistakes. If you fail a mission or something, don't just go at it again and hope it will work. Look at why you failed and then correct it.

the problem with most noobs in game is that they refuse to listen to any criticism and just assume that they know best.

Jetdoc · Mar 05, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Outline a path...

I know I'll catch flak for this, but this is/was my personal path to really getting to know the PvE game...

Step 1 - Copy someone else's build, join a guild, learn to play the game with a maximum sized-party of guildmates.

Step 2 - Copy someone else's build, join maximum-sized PuGs.

Step 3 - Copy someone else's build, play the game with heroes with copied builds.

Step 4 - Copy someone else's build, play the game with henchmen.

Step 5 - Create your own build(s), play the game with heroes with copied builds.

Step 6 - Create your own build(s), play the game with heroes with builds you created.

Step 7 - Learn to beat PvE without a maximum size party.

Step 8 - Gradually trim your party size down, and learn to beat PvE with 1 or 2 heroes/henchmen.

Step 9 - Learn to beat PvE solo without any heroes or henchmen.

Please note that this is NOT meant to be condescending in any sort of way (and isn't meant to infer that one way of playing is better than others) - it is simply the path I am currently following in learning all aspects of the PvE game.

Shmanka · Mar 05, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Personally I have been playing for over one year. I help with PvP tactics and I have PvE'd more then my worth yet, I feel that more can still be learnt. My best suggestion is to at least do the following per class:
-Obtain all skills for that profession
-Protector Title
-Cartographer Title
-Do lots of FoW and UW

Not only will that get you better at that class, but a better teamplayer(except for the cartographer, I'm still at 99% I think its just good bragging rights

)

Sniper22 · Mar 05, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

If you wanna be good a pve, just create your own builds with the skills that you get on the way, see what works best for each profession. Don't copy someone elses build or use heros. Just play with other people and you should be fine. The only time when you need to really copy a build is in the elite missions.

dr1zz one · Mar 05, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

masterery....eh? You might need all or a great majority of skills, primary and secondaries, unlocked for that one char. That in itself is asking alot for a PvE char. You might need more than 8Mill exp for skill points to unlock all skills and the plat to pay for those skills.

Enko · Mar 05, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Step 8 - Gradually trim your party size down, and learn to beat PvE with 1 or 2 heroes/henchmen.

Step 9 - Learn to beat PvE solo without any heroes or henchmen.

Please note that this is NOT meant to be condescending in any sort of way (and isn't meant to infer that one way of playing is better than others) - it is simply the path I am currently following in learning all aspects of the PvE game.

Step 9 doesn't really work since solo builds vs party builds are completely different. This would be more like a split at your step 5.

Archangel Xavier · Mar 05, 2007, 08:30 PM // 20:30

Everyone rush to post a reply! Whoever posts advice will be considered a master! Lol. Judging by the op's wording, this was probably intended to manipulate us into jumping at the chance to give our advice. It worked.

Well it seems there is already some good advice concerning character development and quest/mission progression. I guess Ill throw something in here about working the economy.
If you want to make some money or acquire valuable items you can't jump right into farming uw solo and making a steady 30k an hour.
Here's the progression I've used (although it has been over the course of about 2 years lol)
-After making it through the game I farmed griffins and other random creatures for some foundation. Since I started playing certain "updates" have damaged the usefulness of this essential part of online rpgs so you may need to farm monsters and chests alternating between the two.
-You can also buy/sell items. buy 10 obsidian shards at 3k each and sell for 3.5 each and you'll make 5k in profit. This is a slow process sometimes though
-Next I used what I earned to make a w/mo runner and ran to droknars forge and to granite citadel. You can run people anywhere and so long as you know what you are doing its fairly steady pay. Back in the day Id make at least 20k an hour ( 1-1.5k per person and at the very least 2 runs an hour if i was screwing around) Running has become alot harder now though.
-After that you can make your first build worthy of Fissure of Woe Unerworld or Sorrows Furnace and gain some experience and a little gold.
-Continue Running and after you feel you know the 3 aforementioned areas, find a soloing build for one if not all 3(which is usually expensive to make) and make it with all the money and skill points you've earned at this point.
-A list of builds can be found at several GW websites for various functions. Among the most famous are the Invincimonk, SS Necro, and a few flavor of the month builds. Though the great thing about "soloing" is that you can design and test your own builds fairly easily.
-Soloing can be difficult to start with but keep practicing and you'll make more money than you know what to do with.

Oso Minar · Mar 05, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Learn patience and the ability to adapt. That's all you'll ever need.

Jetdoc · Mar 05, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

Step 9 doesn't really work since solo builds vs party builds are completely different. This would be more like a split at your step 5.

Actually, I found that solo builds that you create (i.e. and not the popular copied ones such as the 55 build) often work very, very well in group settings.

It simply requires taking a very good build that you use in groups, and gradually tweaking it to be a bit more self-sustaining (i.e. less reliant on monk healing and ranger/mesmer interrupting). This is where the "learning" comes in - I wind up using, at one time or another, almost every skill available to my characters' primary and secondary professions in order to accomplish this.

I also wanted to pause to say that I am in various stages of development on each of my characters, and often learn how to progress by starting over with Step 1 on some of the harder missions/areas. I definitely do not consider myself a "Master" PvE player, by any stretch of the imagination.

Sentience · Mar 05, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

PvE Mastery is simple.

Henchman, Heroes and Monks that just heal and don't cast crap like Firestorm.

A MM hero also works well, haven't lost a mission yet with full heroes and hench.

Bryant Again · Mar 05, 2007, 09:37 PM // 21:37

In missions, learn to Wiki.

In explorable areas, learn patrol routes.

There sadly isn't much to it anymore. Heroes don't make it more fun, just easy. But then why would you join a PUG, with the greater chance of failure, when you can herohench it, get the masters, and earn a wonderfully maxed title?

Samuel Dravis · Mar 05, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Heh. One of the main things I notice newbies doing badly is cross-classing. Don't do it until you know how to make a good build with your own class's skills. Once you know that, then you can figure out how another skill would complement your build. I have horrid memories of the Dervish I was playing with yesterday using Blood of the Master in a group with 2 MMs. -_-

Jeremy Untouchable · Mar 05, 2007, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis

Heh. One of the main things I notice newbies doing badly is cross-classing. Don't do it until you know how to make a good build with your own class's skills. Once you know that, then you can figure out how another skill would complement your build. I have horrid memories of the Dervish I was playing with yesterday using Blood of the Master in a group with 2 MMs. -_-

.............whats wrong with that? Blood of the master heals All allied undead minions, dervs have boundless health regen, it would "work".....now that may not be what the guys was doing, but dont down grade someone to "nub" b/c they are using a nonstandard build

dgb · Mar 06, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Learn to PVP effectively then apply lessons learnt to PVE. You'll find that PVE is stupidly easy...

JoeKnowMo · Mar 06, 2007, 12:52 AM // 00:52

One of the things that sets pve apart from pvp is the much larger room for error and with it the possibility of experimentation.

I think it's completely fine to copy builds when starting but even then I recommend you experiment with tweaking the builds. Change a skill or two in the build before each new quest or mission. Then decide if the new skill bar is better or worse than the original. Make changes to the build based on that before the next quest/mission.

If a skill looks decent to you try to find a way to include it in a build. Don't be afraid to dabble in your secondary profession. While this may often result in sub-optimal builds, you should still get through most missions/quests with proper positioning and pulling.

Once you're familiar with a lot of skills, you can try creating synergies with your char and heroes (e.g., Barrager with conflagaration, MM with bone fiends, Ele with Mark of Rodgort, Paragon with They're on Fire). There's some very interesting stuff you can also do with Arcane Mimicry to take advantage of controlling your heroes' builds.

Oftentimes, what makes one pve build stronger than another is affecting multiple foes (AoE damage - Barrage, Spiteful Spirit, Fire nukes, etc.) or multiple allies (e.g, Aegis, Watch Yourself!, Stand Your Ground, Wards) at once. At higher levels, interrupts can help or be downright essential, so you'll want to bring a couple of these on heroes or yourself along.

I stress experimentation because you will come to know the skills and various builds well. You'll come to recognize synergies. You'll also be able to tell if someone is using a subpar build on themselves or their heroes.

Edit: The reason I recommend varying builds is that you get to know the skills well in terms of their advantages, disadvantages, and situational utility. I like to pug and often when I do I run into a player using a really poor build on a hero. When said player dings the hero's skillbar usually no one in the party (besides myself) says anything b/c they don't recognize the skills (since they've been playing copied/static builds on themselves and their heroes). Reading the wiki skill lists is also helpful in this regard.

@ Viruzz's comment below: If you do your homework, then any area of pve is easy. However, many players (including myself) don't like to look everything up and we forget the enemies we faced in a given area due to having not played there in some time. Being able to adapt with a subpar build doesn't necessarily make you a master, but it makes you a better player. E.g., a paragon goes into the RoT with a lot of shouts/chants: the so-so player will say, "omg, VM is pwning me. rezone so I can change skills" while the more skillful player will stay in the backlines, away from the enemy necros and will continue unabated.

Viruzzz · Mar 06, 2007, 01:52 AM // 01:52

being a master at PvE doesn't come down to skill, as much as it comes down to knowledge, everything in PvE is predictable, and semi-static. so if you do your homework you can win any battle in PvE, just by knowing what you will be facing, and purposely bringing skills according to that.

Hauki · Mar 06, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Learn to PVP effectively then apply lessons learnt to PVE. You'll find that PVE is stupidly easy...

This man has it right. If you want enumerated steps, try:
1. Start GvGing
2. Get good at the game via the above.
3. Apply skills learned & fly through any PvE.
Best of all, you can apply some of what you learn to getting good at other games as well.

Antheus · Mar 06, 2007, 04:04 AM // 04:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Learn to PVP effectively then apply lessons learnt to PVE. You'll find that PVE is stupidly easy...

/cookie4you

So true.

Samuel Dravis · Mar 06, 2007, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeremy untouchable

.............whats wrong with that? Blood of the master heals All allied undead minions, dervs have boundless health regen, it would "work".....now that may not be what the guys was doing, but dont down grade someone to "nub" b/c they are using a nonstandard build

He used it in a team with 2 mm's. It almost killed him every time, and he was out in the front getting pounded on. Sorry, but while it may be "nonstandard" to do that, there's probably a reason it's nonstandard. Also, he didn't even have a clue why he was dying. He asked me and I had to tell him to look at the skill description again. Doh!

Still, my point still stands: people who cross class without knowing what they're doing just doesn't work out well.